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Why Design Matters: Conversations with the World's Most Creative People
Foreword by Roxane Gay “Debbie Millman brings her Design Matters podcast, ‘about how the most creative people in the world create their lives,’ to the page with this excellent interview anthology. Sharpened by Millman’s penetrating commentary, the candid musings teem with insight and empathy. This sparkling collection is one to be savored slowly.”— Publisher’s Weekly The author, educator, brand consultant, and host of the widely successful and award-winning podcast Design Matters showcases dozens of her most exciting interviews, bringing together insights and reflections from today’s leading creative minds from across diverse fields. “Debbie Millman has become a singular voice in the world of intimate, enlightening conversations. She has demonstrated time, and again, why design matters.”—Roxane Gay, from the foreword Over the course of her popular podcast’s fifteen-year reign, Debbie Millman has interviewed more than 400 creative minds. In those conversations, she has not only explored what it means to design a creative life, but has, as Millman’s wife, Roxane Gay, assesses in her foreword, “created a gloriously interesting and ongoing conversation about what it means to live well, overcome trauma, face rejection, learn to love and be loved, and thrive both personally and professional.” In this illustrated, curated anthology, Millman includes approximately 80 of her best interviews with visionaries from across diverse fields. Grouped by category—Legends, Truth Tellers, Culture Makers, Trendsetters, and Visionaries—these eye-opening, entertaining, and enlightening conversations—offer insights into new ways of being and living. Accompanying each entry is a brief biography, a portrait photographed by Millman, and a pull quote written in Millman’s artistic hand. Why Design Matters features 100 images and includes interviews with: Marina Abramovic, Cey Adams, Elizabeth Alexander, Laurie Anderson, Lynda Barry, Allison Bechdel, Michael Bierut, Brené Brown, Alain de Botton, Eve Ensler, Shepard Fairey, Tim Ferriss, Louise Fili, Kenny Fries, Anand Girhidardas, Cindy Gallop, Malcolm Gladwell, Milton Glaser, Ira Glass, Seth Godin, Thelma Golden, Gabrielle Hamilton, Steven Heller, Jessica Hische, Michael R. Jackson, Oliver Jeffers, Saeed Jones, Thomas Kail, Maira Kalman, Chip Kidd, Anne Lamott, Elle Luna, Carmen Maria Machado, Thomas Page McBee, Erin McKeown, Chanel Miller, Mike Mills, Marilyn Minter, Isaac Mizrahi, Nico Muhly, Eileen Myles, Emily Oberman, Amanda Palmer, Priya Parker, Esther Perel, Maria Popova, Edel Rodriguez, Paula Scher, Amy Sherald, Simon Sinek, Pete Souza, Aminatou Sow, Brandon Stanton, Cheryl Strayed, Amber Tamblyn, Christina Tosi, Tea Uglow, Chris Ware, and Albert Watson.
320 pages, ebook
First published October 26, 2021
About the author
Debbie Millman
30 books238 followersDebbie Millman is an American writer, educator, artist, and designer who is perhaps best known as the host of the Design Observer podcast 'Design Matters'. She is 'President of Design' at Sterling Brands, based in New York City, working with brands such as Pepsi, Gillette, Colgate, Kimberly-Clark, Nestlé, and Campbells. She chairs the 'Masters in Branding' program at the School of Visual Arts, is a contributing editor to Print, a blogger for Fast Company, and the 'President Emeritus' of AIGA.
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Displaying 1 - 23 of 23 reviews
June 11, 2021
Beautiful compendium of sixteen years of Design Matters, Debbie Millman’s podcast. She is a pioneer. And an incredible mind. Also my wife. TEN STARS.
April 22, 2022
What was the first podcast you listened to … ever? I think mine may have been Design Matters with Debbie Millman which has been running for eighteen (!) years. Debbie is truly peerless. She is a former senior branding executive (designing campaigns for Burger King, Haagen-Dazs, and Star Wars), cofounder of the world's first graduate program in branding, author of seven books, and, here's the best part, just found true love and got married during the pandemic. This book is a wonderful transcript of her best interviews over the years including Chris Ware, Allison Bechdel, Ira Glass, and Brené Brown. Features lovely cameos (Forewords, Afterwords, Intros, oh my) from Tim Ferriss, Roxane Gay, and Maria Popova. A very dense cinder block of wisdom I will treasure. Highly recommended.
March 2, 2022
Debbie Millman lets the reader in on 80 of her most intimate podcast interviews from the last 15 years. She is an incomparable interviewer and influencer in design and branding, podcasting, and writing. She is at the top of her field, and this project brings together her interview skills, writing, illustration, and photography beautifully and powerfully.
This book worked on so many different levels, which is what great design is all about. The book started with a transcription of the podcasts but then added photographs for an even deeper view into the lives of some of the most famous people in America and the world, including cartoonist Lynda Barry, playwright Eve Ensler, writer Malcomb Gladwell, and influencer Tim Ferriss. The interviews are very intimate in what they shared. Her interview style was masterful yet showed great sensitivity. I came away in awe of the depth of so many creative people who are influencing our world in such incredible ways.
To listen to my interview with the author, go to my podcast at: https://zibbyowens.com/transcript/deb...
This book worked on so many different levels, which is what great design is all about. The book started with a transcription of the podcasts but then added photographs for an even deeper view into the lives of some of the most famous people in America and the world, including cartoonist Lynda Barry, playwright Eve Ensler, writer Malcomb Gladwell, and influencer Tim Ferriss. The interviews are very intimate in what they shared. Her interview style was masterful yet showed great sensitivity. I came away in awe of the depth of so many creative people who are influencing our world in such incredible ways.
To listen to my interview with the author, go to my podcast at: https://zibbyowens.com/transcript/deb...
July 13, 2022
Fantastic profiles of & interviews with people who are truly interesting in many different ways.
Read
April 30, 2022Design matters because design is a powerful tool for communication.
If you know anything about the history of graphic design, you’re probably familiar with the name Milton Glaser.
Glaser is indeed one of the legends of the business, having cofounded New York magazine and designed some of the most iconic images of the sixties and seventies, including the “I Love New York” logo. His name is synonymous with design. Another part of what makes Glaser such a legendary figure is that he’s also spent a lot of time thinking about why design matters. In fact, he wrote an influential article titled “12 Steps on the Designer’s Road to Hell.”
In it, Glaser lists many of the tough decisions designers have to consider during the course of their careers. These are such important decisions that Glaser considers each one either a step toward or out of hell. Why? Well, it comes down to the simple fact that a designer is communicating with the public. Everything from a carton of milk to a presidential campaign contains elements of design that were thought out by someone. And, as we all know, some of these designs are made to intentionally misrepresent. Maybe they’re intended to make the product look bigger on the shelf or that they’re healthier than they actually are. Maybe the product promises results that you know are completely bogus. Or, maybe the product is created using child labor or harmful in other ways – or even potentially deadly when used wrong. So the question becomes, where is your line? What level of misrepresentation would you refuse to participate in? What lies won’t you tell to sell an idea or a product?
In short, design matters because designers know a great deal about the tools of communication. Design can manipulate minds and be persuasive in ways both good and bad. The work of a designer can make you want to exercise or smoke cigarettes.
Nowadays, this is perhaps more problematic than it has ever been. In the 1960s, Glaser made his career by being a counterculture troublemaker. But now, politics and corporations and media have become so intertwined that being a troublemaker will likely result in the kind of trouble that will simply hurt your career, not help it.
Nevertheless, designers have the knowledge and the tools to help. They know how to communicate in ways the average person doesn’t. And the conclusion Glaser comes to is that they should be good citizens and use those tools to publish, react to what’s happening, create manifestos, post their work on the streets, reach the public, and change hearts and minds for the better.
Interestingly enough, Glaser’s thoughts are echoed by another legend in the field of graphic design, Steven Heller, who spent 30 years as an art director for the New York Times. Millman has conducted 14 different interviews with Heller over the years. One of the key moments from those many interviews is when Heller explained his personal philosophy of design, and why he didn’t pursue a career in advertising or branding. For Heller, design should always serve a social purpose.
---
Creativity can come from a mix of confidence, doubt, and staying true to your beliefs.
Here we are, the one where we look at some of the big names – the “Visionaries.” People like musician David Byrne, artists Marina Ambramović and Shepard Fairey, illustrator Maira Kalman, radio and podcast producer Ira Glass, and internet cultural curator Maria Popova. All of these folks have, in one way or another, changed the game. Byrne, and his bandmates in Talking Heads, changed rock and roll. Ambramović changed modern art by pushing the boundaries of performance art.
Shepard Fairey is also testing boundaries, albeit in a different way. In the 1980s, Fairey was into skateboarding and punk rock. But he always had an interest in art and when he began taking classes in graphic design and screen printing, it was like he’d found his true calling. This led to Fairey making the streets his gallery of choice, putting up handmade stickers and posters.
For Fairey, street art appealed to his punk rock DIY ethics. But he also admits that he wasn’t exactly confident enough to send out samples of his work or take meetings, nor did he want to pander to the elitist folks within the fine art world. In fact, even though he’s now one of the most high-profile names in the art world, that’s something that he’s still not comfortable doing. This has caused some controversy since Fairey insists on keeping his work affordable for those he still cares about: skateboarders, punk rockers, college kids. So, on top of doing work for brands like Coca-Cola and Dewar’s Scotch, he still makes money selling T-shirts and $35 screen prints. Some might call him a sellout, others might call him a rebel who continues to play by his own rules.
Fairey sees it as a delicate balance – deciding on whether to take a project based on its own merits. It’s not unlike consulting with Mitch Glaser’s 12 steps. He’s taken some Coca-Cola gigs and rejected others. It depends. What matters is that he has to be able to stand behind the idea, 100 percent.
That doesn’t mean you can’t have doubts. Designer Maira Kalman has written and illustrated dozens of wildly celebrated books, including The Pursuit of Happiness and The Principles of Uncertainty. But she still considers doubting and fretting as part of the everyday process. As she puts it, “I think what I do is terrible. I’m constantly tormented.” But for Kalman, it’s the duality of the artist – being both incredibly insecure and fiercely driven. This is where her creativity comes from: it generates a sort of frantic excitement that produces great work.
Kalman, like other artists we’ve covered, also likes a good assignment. She doesn’t have the sort of creative mind that can just walk into the studio and, again, pull a fantastic idea out of the ether. This is why Kalman enjoyed working for publications like the New Yorker and the New York Times. She could look at her work as journalism – looking at the world, observing, and sending an illustrated report back to the office.
In a way, it’s just like composer Nico Muhly said – having a recognizable structure on which to hang your ambitious and stylized art. Perhaps it makes sense, then, that Kalman and Muhly collaborated on an opera entitled The Elements of Style.
Hopefully, these snippets from Millman’s conversations will give you some ideas about how to develop your own style, your own sense of design and creativity. Maybe the ideas here will help you find your voice and dance with your fear.
If you know anything about the history of graphic design, you’re probably familiar with the name Milton Glaser.
Glaser is indeed one of the legends of the business, having cofounded New York magazine and designed some of the most iconic images of the sixties and seventies, including the “I Love New York” logo. His name is synonymous with design. Another part of what makes Glaser such a legendary figure is that he’s also spent a lot of time thinking about why design matters. In fact, he wrote an influential article titled “12 Steps on the Designer’s Road to Hell.”
In it, Glaser lists many of the tough decisions designers have to consider during the course of their careers. These are such important decisions that Glaser considers each one either a step toward or out of hell. Why? Well, it comes down to the simple fact that a designer is communicating with the public. Everything from a carton of milk to a presidential campaign contains elements of design that were thought out by someone. And, as we all know, some of these designs are made to intentionally misrepresent. Maybe they’re intended to make the product look bigger on the shelf or that they’re healthier than they actually are. Maybe the product promises results that you know are completely bogus. Or, maybe the product is created using child labor or harmful in other ways – or even potentially deadly when used wrong. So the question becomes, where is your line? What level of misrepresentation would you refuse to participate in? What lies won’t you tell to sell an idea or a product?
In short, design matters because designers know a great deal about the tools of communication. Design can manipulate minds and be persuasive in ways both good and bad. The work of a designer can make you want to exercise or smoke cigarettes.
Nowadays, this is perhaps more problematic than it has ever been. In the 1960s, Glaser made his career by being a counterculture troublemaker. But now, politics and corporations and media have become so intertwined that being a troublemaker will likely result in the kind of trouble that will simply hurt your career, not help it.
Nevertheless, designers have the knowledge and the tools to help. They know how to communicate in ways the average person doesn’t. And the conclusion Glaser comes to is that they should be good citizens and use those tools to publish, react to what’s happening, create manifestos, post their work on the streets, reach the public, and change hearts and minds for the better.
Interestingly enough, Glaser’s thoughts are echoed by another legend in the field of graphic design, Steven Heller, who spent 30 years as an art director for the New York Times. Millman has conducted 14 different interviews with Heller over the years. One of the key moments from those many interviews is when Heller explained his personal philosophy of design, and why he didn’t pursue a career in advertising or branding. For Heller, design should always serve a social purpose.
---
Creativity can come from a mix of confidence, doubt, and staying true to your beliefs.
Here we are, the one where we look at some of the big names – the “Visionaries.” People like musician David Byrne, artists Marina Ambramović and Shepard Fairey, illustrator Maira Kalman, radio and podcast producer Ira Glass, and internet cultural curator Maria Popova. All of these folks have, in one way or another, changed the game. Byrne, and his bandmates in Talking Heads, changed rock and roll. Ambramović changed modern art by pushing the boundaries of performance art.
Shepard Fairey is also testing boundaries, albeit in a different way. In the 1980s, Fairey was into skateboarding and punk rock. But he always had an interest in art and when he began taking classes in graphic design and screen printing, it was like he’d found his true calling. This led to Fairey making the streets his gallery of choice, putting up handmade stickers and posters.
For Fairey, street art appealed to his punk rock DIY ethics. But he also admits that he wasn’t exactly confident enough to send out samples of his work or take meetings, nor did he want to pander to the elitist folks within the fine art world. In fact, even though he’s now one of the most high-profile names in the art world, that’s something that he’s still not comfortable doing. This has caused some controversy since Fairey insists on keeping his work affordable for those he still cares about: skateboarders, punk rockers, college kids. So, on top of doing work for brands like Coca-Cola and Dewar’s Scotch, he still makes money selling T-shirts and $35 screen prints. Some might call him a sellout, others might call him a rebel who continues to play by his own rules.
Fairey sees it as a delicate balance – deciding on whether to take a project based on its own merits. It’s not unlike consulting with Mitch Glaser’s 12 steps. He’s taken some Coca-Cola gigs and rejected others. It depends. What matters is that he has to be able to stand behind the idea, 100 percent.
That doesn’t mean you can’t have doubts. Designer Maira Kalman has written and illustrated dozens of wildly celebrated books, including The Pursuit of Happiness and The Principles of Uncertainty. But she still considers doubting and fretting as part of the everyday process. As she puts it, “I think what I do is terrible. I’m constantly tormented.” But for Kalman, it’s the duality of the artist – being both incredibly insecure and fiercely driven. This is where her creativity comes from: it generates a sort of frantic excitement that produces great work.
Kalman, like other artists we’ve covered, also likes a good assignment. She doesn’t have the sort of creative mind that can just walk into the studio and, again, pull a fantastic idea out of the ether. This is why Kalman enjoyed working for publications like the New Yorker and the New York Times. She could look at her work as journalism – looking at the world, observing, and sending an illustrated report back to the office.
In a way, it’s just like composer Nico Muhly said – having a recognizable structure on which to hang your ambitious and stylized art. Perhaps it makes sense, then, that Kalman and Muhly collaborated on an opera entitled The Elements of Style.
Hopefully, these snippets from Millman’s conversations will give you some ideas about how to develop your own style, your own sense of design and creativity. Maybe the ideas here will help you find your voice and dance with your fear.
May 26, 2022
It is rare that I find myself disappointed in a book. There are books I read that I don't like but in this case, I was disappointed.
Some of my disappointment comes from being a fan of Debbie Millman's work, especially the Design Matters podcast from which almost the entirety of this book is extracted. I may have had an expectation of something new, something innovative, something interesting, something bold. This book is none of those things.
Maybe I'm tired of the constant repurposing of content. People breaking a 15 minute video into five three minute videos. Putting the same content on different platforms. Transcribing podcasts into articles or, in this case, a book.
I could have accepted the repurposing better except for one thing...this book (the hardcover edition) is really poorly designed. It is a hefty book. It looks like it should be a coffee table book. That's fine. Interviews with creative people who make creative work. A coffee table book that shows some of their work would be a fantastic idea.
Not the case. The only images in this book are photos of the people Debbie interviewed. If you're not going to include images, why make a book that is cumbersome to read? Isn't that poor design? The layout and design choices in the book are not great either. A red punctuation symbol to end each interview along with some scribbly mark. Gray text for Debbie's questions and black for the respondent's answers (except for the occasional overrun errors). And the wacky layout of the questions and answers again makes it feel like a book that didn't have the intent to be a read book. Sometimes you actually have to hunt for the question given the light color of text and the erratic placement of the questions.
Along those lines, there is no rhyme or reason as to the portions of the podcasts that were extracted. There's no cohesiveness. Nothing that ties one interview together to the other.
If you're thinking about reading this book, just listen to the podcast. There's much more content. You get to witness firsthand Debbie's exceptional research and interviewing skills, and you will get much more insight into the people being interviewed than you will glean from this book.
Some of my disappointment comes from being a fan of Debbie Millman's work, especially the Design Matters podcast from which almost the entirety of this book is extracted. I may have had an expectation of something new, something innovative, something interesting, something bold. This book is none of those things.
Maybe I'm tired of the constant repurposing of content. People breaking a 15 minute video into five three minute videos. Putting the same content on different platforms. Transcribing podcasts into articles or, in this case, a book.
I could have accepted the repurposing better except for one thing...this book (the hardcover edition) is really poorly designed. It is a hefty book. It looks like it should be a coffee table book. That's fine. Interviews with creative people who make creative work. A coffee table book that shows some of their work would be a fantastic idea.
Not the case. The only images in this book are photos of the people Debbie interviewed. If you're not going to include images, why make a book that is cumbersome to read? Isn't that poor design? The layout and design choices in the book are not great either. A red punctuation symbol to end each interview along with some scribbly mark. Gray text for Debbie's questions and black for the respondent's answers (except for the occasional overrun errors). And the wacky layout of the questions and answers again makes it feel like a book that didn't have the intent to be a read book. Sometimes you actually have to hunt for the question given the light color of text and the erratic placement of the questions.
Along those lines, there is no rhyme or reason as to the portions of the podcasts that were extracted. There's no cohesiveness. Nothing that ties one interview together to the other.
If you're thinking about reading this book, just listen to the podcast. There's much more content. You get to witness firsthand Debbie's exceptional research and interviewing skills, and you will get much more insight into the people being interviewed than you will glean from this book.
May 16, 2022
As usual with a book like this, I did not read ALL of this but I did read a lot of it. More than I had planned to read. Each “entry” is a 3 to 5 page transcript of a radio interview (now a podcast) of the show entitled “Why Design Matters.”
I read the intro to each entry which consists of a photograph and a single page summary or overview of who the subject is and how his or her professional career or artistic life connects to Design, the overall subject of this book.
While author/interviewer Debbie Millman’s interviewees are all famous and/or successful in the fields of design and art, I was drawn to read those involved in graphic design and writing such as Alison Bechdel, Anne Lamott, Chris Ware, Carmen Maria Machado, Lynda Barry, Malcolm Gladwell, Chip Kidd, but also David Byrne, Ira Glass, and Eve Ensler (aka V) among assorted others.
Each person’s story was unique and interesting but there was the occasional similarity, especially the suffering childhood with abusive or neglectful or controlling parents that made me wonder about the cliches we all know about what it takes to become a great artist. Or maybe that was just the ones I remember most.
I read the intro to each entry which consists of a photograph and a single page summary or overview of who the subject is and how his or her professional career or artistic life connects to Design, the overall subject of this book.
While author/interviewer Debbie Millman’s interviewees are all famous and/or successful in the fields of design and art, I was drawn to read those involved in graphic design and writing such as Alison Bechdel, Anne Lamott, Chris Ware, Carmen Maria Machado, Lynda Barry, Malcolm Gladwell, Chip Kidd, but also David Byrne, Ira Glass, and Eve Ensler (aka V) among assorted others.
Each person’s story was unique and interesting but there was the occasional similarity, especially the suffering childhood with abusive or neglectful or controlling parents that made me wonder about the cliches we all know about what it takes to become a great artist. Or maybe that was just the ones I remember most.
April 2, 2022
I picked up a signed copy at Rizzoli Books as a gift to myself and what a gift! It was worth the extra weight in my suitcase. I’ve been reading a story or two every morning with my coffee and it has added such depth to my daily ritual. It’s beautifully designed but the intimate interviews are the true wonders. I find myself rereading passages and scribbling notes along with a big list of creatives to find out more about. Despite being a life-long designer I haven’t listened to the podcast much. That’s about to change.
I’m planning on buying copies for my (adult) kids and as graduation gifts for the young creatives in my world. Bravo!
I’m planning on buying copies for my (adult) kids and as graduation gifts for the young creatives in my world. Bravo!
May 2, 2022
This book is a door to a beautiful world. Of design, courage, becoming, overcoming, paying attention to beauty and using that to make sense of brutality and so so much more. This book should be read by anyone. Not just creatives. Well, we are all our kind of creative. There is so much in it! So many stories of beginning and beginning again, of knowing from the start and finding out later, of breaking barriers and walls, of creating new worlds. I had known that Debbie Milman runs one of the most successful podcasts in history but I had never listened to it. This book has made me hungry to hear more of these conversations
November 6, 2022
This was...mostly annoying. In her desire to ask rare questions, Millman ends up going for the most uninteresting aspects of these people's lives. "What were your childhood daydreams like?" Yeah, no one cares.
Also, this made me realize how annoying I find these kinds of artists/creative types to be. They're overly precious about their feelings and I just don't understand why that's important or of interest.
Also, this made me realize how annoying I find these kinds of artists/creative types to be. They're overly precious about their feelings and I just don't understand why that's important or of interest.
October 22, 2022
This is a book of interviews. Interviews are interesting and dive into creative process a little bit, but contents do not justify the title. I was expecting more of a deep dive on why design is important and what each of these individuals did in their work to advance design concepts. Some of the interviews were really interesting, and some not so.
Read
December 29, 2022DNF
The interviews are really interesting and make me want to hear or read the full, unedited interview. But, ironically, the design of the book fails for me here. The book is large, too large to read comfortably in any way except sitting at a table or a desk which I’m not willlng to do for as much time as this book will require.
The interviews are really interesting and make me want to hear or read the full, unedited interview. But, ironically, the design of the book fails for me here. The book is large, too large to read comfortably in any way except sitting at a table or a desk which I’m not willlng to do for as much time as this book will require.
January 8, 2023
Creatively stumped or stagnant? Shut your pue joke, grab a pencil and paper, turn off your stupid phone, and crack open this wonderful book. Read a chapter (interviews with artists and musicians and writers), then write down what you learned, put it aside and get back to work. Git. This is inspiring and rejuvenating and my go-to when I need to kick myself in the ass.
Read
November 27, 2022Ended up skipping around a bit to the interview with people I was familiar with or if the intro to them caught my attention. Overall, Debbie Millman is great at interviewing and this was a little treat.
June 4, 2023
Debbie Millman is delightful and I really enjoyed many of the interviews. I rounded down from 3.5 because the “design” of a coffee table book meant that I was carrying around something heavy or reading it on Hoopla which dragged down the experience for me.
I am clearly not the target audience.
I am clearly not the target audience.
May 9, 2022
This is such a comprehensive book, and has some of the best interview moments from Millman's many years asking design questions.
June 20, 2022
Beautiful coffee table book full of excerpts from Debbie Millman’s interviews. Lots of thought provoking passages. I especially enjoyed the first third of the book.
October 30, 2022
I think I would prefer the author’s podcast which I will give a try. I was not familiar with her work previous to reading this. Interesting concepts but just didn’t work for me that well.
November 16, 2022
Debbie Millman of the Design Matters Podcast, collected some of her interviews in Why Design Matters. I enjoyed some of the interviews, especially the ‘Truth Tellers’ and ‘Culture Makers’ sections.
June 24, 2023
A bunch of podcast interviews written out. I'll listen to the Design Matters podcast.
February 18, 2024
An interesting collection of fascinating people answering questions about the way they do life, create art, contribute. I enjoyed this and liked the portraits as well.
July 27, 2022
This is an excellent compendium of interviews and photos from Debbie Millman's Podcast. I was engrossed and loved being introduced to so many incredible creators. My only beef is that this book deserves a wider audience than will be drawn to a $75.00 coffee table book.
September 4, 2022
A surprising proportion of the book is the interviewees complaining about things - these are people at the top 0.1% of their profession, people who receive constant adulation.
Displaying 1 - 23 of 23 reviews